TILP #11: Low time preference business & money w/ Ben Justman

00:01.27

ilm

All right Ben Justman thanks for thanks for joining me today on the podcast for sure. Why ah I enjoyed a bottle of ah your cab last night for my my birthday dinner had a nice couple nice steaks.

00:01.50

Ben Justman

Um, great to see you Jim thanks for being having me here.

00:19.10

ilm

And ah and some some mashed potatoes I threw together I was surprised how why they turned out and ah yeah, opened up a bottle of Cabernet and it was fantastic. So glad you're here so I could just ah ah, boast on your your delicious wine.

00:33.40

Ben Justman

Um, yeah, that's music to my ears I mean having wine as my business is such a beautiful thing because I just kind of get to share those great moments with people all the time as part of my business structure and. And be part of those beautiful times.

00:54.10

ilm

I guess let's yeah for those who don't know who you are then Mac you tell us who's who's been Justman why why are you here? What do you? Ah what you suppose we should talk through today.

01:01.99

Ben Justman

Sure I'm a natural winemaker in western Colorado doing wine made without any additives or much manipulation at all so wine with super minimal soul fights and it's wine that makes you feel like. Pretty clean afterwards. You don't get the nasty hangovers headaches all from just lack of intervention. It also makes for wine that is more representative of my location of my high elevation desert region which. Kind of brings out some some great attributes and specifically pinot noir is what I grow myself and I am also just a solo entrepreneur who found bitcoin partway through his journey and kind of just had that plus. Building a wine business kind of just like reshaped my world in the last few years so it's been a fun journey getting this going both finding bitcoin and starting a business.

02:04.50

ilm

Sweet. Well, ah yeah I want to talk I get I would love to talk through your business and your journey on starting and building that and where you think you went ahead and then also your.

02:18.85

ilm

Ah, encounter with bitcoin and your journey through that and then the collision of those 2 things and how you navigate where to deploy capital and ah you knows your thoughts on both those things moving forward. So I'd I love to have that conversation. So let's let's start off with ah.

02:35.23

Ben Justman

Um.

02:37.43

ilm

Start off with let's start with the bitcoin side of things that's like that's less heavy than the the business. Let's start off with bitcoin So tell us about your your bitcoin story. How do you come into this and what's it look like for you.

02:47.28

Ben Justman

So I was always really basically since college I got really into personal finance and through that was taking as minimal risk as I could in the eyes of you have to invest you have to save a large amount was my philosophy and. In that I was trying to get the the best credit cards for percent back. The best savings account to at least get like 2% interest at at those times and then do robo investing through just index funds just be kind of as baseline as possible I read a book about investing that. Um, by the Marl Lynch Peter Lynch and basically was like oh yeah, cool. So I'm not going to pick stocks. That's just ah, that's a whole nother job and so all I did was those baseline things and then twenty nineteen the reverse repo spike is. Caused interest rates on my savings account to go to 0 from 2% and I knew that Cpi which was what I used for inflation back then was 2% so my world of like oh I can just have I have my savings account. That's just going to keep up with inflation I'm not worried about making money there. My investment account that like rug kind of got cut out from under me where I was like oh it's just 2% but it's like I can't keep up with inflation with saving There's nothing I can do without taking risk so starting there I just was kind of looking for something.

04:20.33

Ben Justman

Like this system isn't really working for me and I moved back home after having started my business and moved in with a good friend from high school who I think is really smart and he was really into bitcoin so he just kind of directed my attention towards the the. Bitcoin and I always had kind of a monetary Lens. So I never got really deep into any of the alcoins that seems like a lot of people went through because I was never really looking for a gamble I was looking for low risk kind of sure thing and once I figured out Bitcoin It was just like you know was a. All these things popping together and um, kind of just flipping that whole investment thesis on its head because within the fiat system. It is this continued amount of risk where I just wanted to go super risk off weirdly like I was also extremely risk on by. Betting on myself on a business and going as all in on bitcoin as I did just because I think a lot of people who find bitcoin kind of just get swept up in the hype when I was really getting the hang of it and understanding it. The price was going Crazy. So um.

05:36.40

Ben Justman

Just I was like I need as much of this as possible I need to go all in because I think it's going to infinity because that's what it's worth,, but it's worth that in my mind and as a pretty novice investor. It was um, ah definitely a harsh wakeup call to be like oh yeah, the markets are irrational. They do not value this thing like I do. Um I need to to I need to slow down a little bit.

05:59.26

ilm

I Ah, there's so many things I'm sort of laughing at that. You just said, um we here, let's when with so when did you stumble into bitcoin. Well first off you said a friend that introduce you to bitcoin high school buddy and is he still in the bitcoin.

06:12.60

Ben Justman

Yeah, definitely? um, he yeah, he's he's killing it. He has a ah family fruit business here. So um, two young guys and in payona with family businesses that hoping to see us thrive in the future. Um, but. But it was late Twenty Twenty by the time I started getting a hang of it. So I'd lived with him for a few months and that's why I started buying but like it was maybe early twenty Twenty one when the final like the final big like brain blast of I get it now hit me. So.

06:48.84

ilm

That was when bitcoin was that like ah mid 30 s or so.

06:51.21

Ben Justman

Um I started buying before the runup but not much money and then um, listen to Jeff Booth with Robert Breed Love to finally have the last thing of like what does what do prices look like in a world with like. Ah, hard currency and that was always the flip for me I was like it isn't inflation just built in things just always get more expensive. How can it be that things just where do things go if we have hard money and the flip of just understanding that prices should. Inherently be getting lower because we get better at producing things was the final like nail in the coffin for me. Unfortunately, that happened right before the price crashed to 30000 so I was definitely like in my holy crap mode at a little bit higher price. There.

07:46.18

ilm

What? Ah I think that's the story of a lot of people and yours was your your basis was education. Not hype. Um, it just happened to coincide that your education was your your education phase coincided with the general hype phase. But unfortunately many people.

07:54.30

Ben Justman

Um.

08:03.30

ilm

Buy in the top. The the top of these cycles not be due to the education but rather hype so I sort of gave the answer that I would assume but like what what allowed you to continue to purchase despite the fact it went to 30000 and to continue dollar cost average along the way versus so many people who buy the top. Based off of hype and then get burned and they walk away for 6 years what What what allowed for that.

08:27.40

Ben Justman

Well I that was it was all education like you said so I was full conviction at 50000 expecting it to go much higher because that's what I realized it was worth and so I had a stacking goal that in my mind was like wow. That's going to if I get there in my entire life I'm going to be happy and so I you know invested a ton of money at 50000 and you know at that point I was like I'm all in and then it dropped like I think literally the next week it dropped to 30000 and I said to myself like. You know yeah I wish I'd waited you know I wish I'd saved that money but this is the greatest opportunity of my life because now I have a chance to really make a dent in this stacking goal whereas previously. It was like wow this is just going to get away from me and there's no way I can make enough money to keep up. With the price continuing to go upwards. So when it went down. It was just like I was so thankful that I had another opportunity to continue stacking.

09:34.11

ilm

So ah, along the way. So it's been a couple of years now how have you continued to acquire bitcoin and or i'mssuming you have so how how is that how's that progressed

09:43.62

Ben Justman

So those my first two years of starting the winery I was definitely pretty fully invested in like buying grapes and making wine but those expenses only come about you know once a year so I had huge expenses every fall. But. During those first two years I was also not selling any wine so I had a full time job and I had an income and so I was just investing what I had as far as savings go I was putting some in the winery sum into bitcoin and then finding just all the excess money that I could dump into bitcoin because I had. The availability for loans to continue building the business and and make wine since then I started selling wine and that has become my entire income and through that I've been able to just get bitcoin through selling wine so I sell wine for bitcoin which is um. You know it hurt I guess like I have such a long time preference with with bitcoin like I'm not worried about the price if I sell a bottle and the price tanks like I'm just happy to have bitcoin at that price. Um, but all of 2022 I'm selling wine during my busy season of the summer and it's sitting around. You know 40000 and then the later that year drops to 15 so you know in the short run you're like wow those bottles I really sold for not much money. But then you get down to 15000 and I'm starting to really sell a lot of wine for bitcoin and now I mean just in the course of a year um the value of those bottles that I sold.

11:19.19

Ben Justman

Down there of about 3 x so long run I know this is the right strategy. It's just kind of like anything I can do to turn any excess I have into bitcoin is what I'm trying to do so I have right now as you can see behind me a ton of wine and.

11:34.85

ilm

Um, that looks that background looks real and.

11:39.26

Ben Justman

Yeah, this is not cgi. This is my wide seller. So um, basically I've just trying to turn like I know that my margins online are high enough that if I sell as much as I can for bitcoin and just have that put away I'm going to be able to have enough money through. Um, dollar wine sales to be able to fund continuing to make wine every fall. So everything that I have like quote unquote extra and wine which I've never hit the limit of that is I'm trying to turn into bitcoin whereas um, all the dollar sales I get. Kind of just go back into the business and continue funding that for.

12:17.82

ilm

Gotcha So That's how you navigate because that that can be a risk like we saw that with ah like some bitcoin mining companies and stuff a few years back not managing their balance sheets. Well you know they were maybe holding an irresponsible amount of bitcoin on their balance sheets when their ah their overhead was payable in. Fiat and if if bitcoin drops by 70% but your bills remain the same. You could be toast so that is that That's how you navigate thated you you have some to allocate long term and other yeah, the your your fiat bills you keep in fiat.

12:36.98

Ben Justman

Um, and he.

12:44.79

Ben Justman

Definitely.

12:49.82

Ben Justman

Yeah, if I mean if I ever got to a point where I was like selling too much wine for bitcoin I think I could get into a dangerous spot. But it's not such a high percentage of my sales that I'm getting to that point and honestly like I. I Think in the short term I would be better off if I converted all those dollars to bitcoin and was able to kind of just continue paying off debt and investing slowly into the business I mean this is how I'm going to build my livelihood but um I know I I kind of need to continue taking this long term perspective. So. I Don't It's not like this systematical like well thought out approach. It's just if I get bitcoin I keep bitcoin. That's it's that simple and the rest of it is all right? Cool. So if that's the Baseline then I need to go out and continue selling a ton of wine and. That's really my only financial problem is I have a bunch of wine and I just need to sell it and I'll be Fine. So.

13:50.78

ilm

It's that that simple well I know I when I was in tellide this summer ah went and saw you the ah the farmer's market which you go to the tell ride farmer's market in aspen and a third town which what's the third place.

14:03.97

Ben Justman

Basalt is a community pretty close to aspen.

14:07.36

ilm

Nice so you go there and you sell your wine in person when it's not ° outside and then you you sell online throughout the year which I I see you some bitcoin last week for some wine and ah yeah, it's great. Yeah.

14:15.97

Ben Justman

Um, you did aging Well both of them. So yeah, so part of that is like at going into this I didn't have a ton of Capital I got um.

14:24.71

ilm

Ah.

14:32.13

Ben Justman

My dad loaned me money to start the winery I had infrastructure from him to start the winery all of that infrastructure needed to be scaled up so I've definitely poured a lot of capital into scaling up my business but essentially that meant like I have everything I can do to get this going as long as i. Continue selling my wine. It's good which both of those have worked out and keeping low overhead has been huge for me. So that's why I've angled towards farmers markets is I live in a town of 2000 people that is not all that wealthy and so. I'm surrounded within 2 hours a ton of ski towns a ton of wealth. But my my town not so not really so I'm really not focused on selling to my community at all and I just travel to where there's money to where people are. Appreciate my natural wine quality of my wine and are willing and able to pay for it so going to these places I'm on the road a ton. It's a lot of work but I have no employees no overhead and I make what I feel like is good money every day. Plus it's a marketing opportunity where. I'm a new winery and within wine like there's a little bit less of people wanting to try the hot new thing because your established reputation is so important you buy from I mean you want to buy from vineyards that are extremely old brand new vineyards are not as good wine. So.

16:01.20

Ben Justman

Everything I can do to build my reputation both like in meeting customers firsthand getting to know me the winemaker like having a personal relationship with me people are going to be more willing to buy and also letting them taste my wine so instead of going to liquor stores to sell wine. And it's all of a sudden just another bottle on the shelf that I sell to them for much less margin I'm putting it in front of my customers directly for them to taste and I've found that everything I can do to control the good experience that people have with my wine goes so far because. There are people who know wine and are able to kind of dissociate from their emotional stance when they're tasting it. But for the most part people come to me about wine and the first thing they say is I don't know anything and so I just see that as like you know. Kind of a blank canvas of 1 resetting expectations of like you don't have to know anything. The 1 thing I want to know is does this taste good to you. That's all that matters. You know I mean what I'm trying to get through is wine is a status symbol in a lot of ways. So you know.

17:04.78

ilm

Um, yeah, yeah.

17:16.26

Ben Justman

People want to impress their friends with certain bottles and there's a little bit of like yeah I found this new wine. That's really good that you've never heard of try it. There's definitely that aspect of it and I can fulfill that aspect of it but getting away this like this point where you have to. Spend a ton of money or buy from a vineyard that everyone knows to enjoy the experience. So if I can control and just like make you happy and make you feel like you're having a good time when you drink my wine you're going to like it and therefore you're going to like it probably the next time because you've invested that emotional capital into the wine.

17:38.67

ilm

I.

17:53.92

Ben Justman

And so anything I can do to increase the positivity around the experience of actually tasting my wine is huge. So I've not really wanted to outsource the sales of my wine because then I'm out of control of that and you know I think my wine's really good. Everyone seems to like it generally. But again. If you put it in a situation where it's not going to thrive where like the environment's not right for it and every wine is going to every product really is just going to have this level of like decreased enjoyment. So everything I can do to increase that level of enjoyment is you know. Pays back a ton now. It's not super scalable. But I'm doing but that said like my wine is such a slow scaling business that everything I do is like every bottle of wine that I quote unquote that I make is like. 2 years away from even being released 3 years away from really seeing the full gains on that. So as I've been building this slowly. It's just make sure I have this strong base of customers. The strong base of enjoyment and everything that scales up beyond that will come.

19:06.50

ilm

I love ah, a lot of what you're speaking to outside of having good wine and I like that you boil it down like you're you're removing this connotation of wine has to be about you know, feeling. Whatever it's like is this? do you like the way it tastes like okay that's that's pretty important and if you're drinking it for another reason like at least admit that but you should at least enjoy it and I I really do enjoy your wine and but the same time I you so you speak to that you simplify things down to its base. Goal is is this tasty to you. But then you're also speaking these other things of creating an experience around it. That's why you like for lots of reasons you mentioned but 1 of the reasons you like to deliver your wine and have people experience it. There is it draws these emotional connections to it and it paints a story of here's here's what you're drinking and these things around it and that's what happened? ah. Few nights ago. Um I stay Friday so Wednesday Wednesday night I believe I received the the box of wine you sent me sent me 6 bottles and ah I picked it up I was outside I was moving so kenjura and I were moving right now and I was at our old house. Ah, breaking down boxes and ups showed up and you know I quickly you know it's dark outside it was cold I was gross. You know, breaking down bunch of stuff and I quickly opened up just because I was excited to see it and I opened it up and just like taking a bottle out and seeing like your labels and just everything like.

20:36.24

ilm

It was a mean it probably happened in a fraction of a second but I was whisbacked to September of last year when we were in Colorado and I was transported for that brief moment I was no I wasn't on my driveway breaking down boxes getting sweaty and stinky I was in tell your eye in a nine Thousand Square Foot house ah with a group of friends enjoying that wine you know and that's just that that emotional connection I didn't drink it I just saw I saw your label on it I you know knew it from Ben and I I like you a lot and it was like oh this is that that moment and if you could start piecing together moments for people and that's where a lot of like. You know that's the the Ritz Carlton you know that's they've created an experience. It's ah it's you're not paying for a just a bed and a Tv if you worry should go to the laquita and you would save a lot of money there like you're paying at the Ritz for certain things. Yes, maybe like. Comforts and safety or security or something like that. But you're really're. You're largely paying for an experience and if we could deliver experiences throughout the any encounter we get with a business like that just how much more does that add to the value of your business and the value of the experience of the the partaker of that. So I like how you lean into that even just you know like with the wine you sent me, you send a couple of your stickers and a handwritten letter from y'a'll know if you do that for everybody if so that's fine, but it makes me feel special and I like it. Um, and I think that's awesome. Um.

21:47.72

Ben Justman

Um, you.

22:02.15

Ben Justman

Um, yeah, so wine is all of that and I think a lot of products are all of that. But wine is this extra level of really connection to time and place where I made this wine the the wine you bought was ah 2021 so I made that almost you know, two and a half years ago at this point and you think back to like oh what was that year like it was it was it hot was it super wet. All these things to make the different wines and the the location's so important in wine because. That is especially like for what I'm doing the natural wine low intervention. It's not about me. It's about the place. It's about what the environment brought to make that good wine because I'm trying to take my hands off of like the making style of it. So it's the wine itself that kind of becomes. What it is based off all the inputs from nature. So I a lot of people look for that in wine and that's why they buy wine from specific regions you buy wine from France you kind of feel this like little connection to this this chateau in France and. Everything I can do to just kind of enhance that connection is is huge because wine is this like multiplier effect for experiences where ah, most of the time when you're drinking nicer wine. You're not like drinking to get drunk. You know.

23:25.55

Ben Justman

I mean you can buy Franzia. You can buy barefoot all that stuff if you just kind of want to have ah a drink but you buy nicer wine because it enhances your quality experiences where you head up for your birthday dinner like that is a nice way to commemorate that moment kind of think back to all the memories you had maybe over the past year and connect to this other like special time and place and enhance where you're at currently so in that it's like I know my wine is going to be drunk in happy times for celebration and so i. That is such a beneficial thing because then you associate that product with those beneficial those happy times and it all kind of just goes together really well and.

24:12.95

ilm

Unless it's unless you have like some winno who like you know, gets back on his feet then the connotation of that that wine out of a paper bag is him being homeless. That's not a good connotation. But that's he's probably not drinking yours if that's the case. Um.

24:23.33

Ben Justman

Um, let's do.

24:28.62

ilm

Um, how okay so your dad did this business before you and you came in and now you've taken over the business sense. So tell me about your vision for like I would assume the business has scaled over the last couple of years like there's just more demand like you're really active on.

24:31.33

Ben Justman

And. Yeah.

24:46.11

ilm

Social media and all those fun things and um, yeah, how how have things scaled over the last couple of years and then what's your vision like do you want to create this empire where you are the next what I don't know I don't know wine very well. Um, but you're the next big thing and you take this up and you're an executive or like no I I want to keep it small and boutique early. Yeah, tell me about yeah how you got to where you are and where you are and then where you want to go.

25:09.58

Ben Justman

So the while my dad had a winery. It wasn't necessarily like a business that was operational at the time that I started doing this so he made wine for himself for maybe 6 years had a group of people coming to help make wine as well. He had a bit of a wine club a winemaker's club and the idea was he just wanted to make wine for himself. He grew all his own food. Got convinced to plant grapes. They turned out really nice and the rest was history for that. But we had this one massive year of pinot noircropp and so he um. Basically either had to sell all the grapes or get a liquor license to be able to make that much wine because he was over the threshold of a home winemaker so he got the liquor license and for 3 ah 3 2 years he was selling it so 2012 was his his wine that. And he made a ton of so about in 2014 he started selling it and that was like he had great success with no real business for energy like he was just like I have too much wine I'll just give it to people and sell my sister was living here at the time and was going to restaurants to sell it. And it was kind of like ah an it wine I mean I'm sure some of it was the mystery of not being widely available but people loved it around here. It was it was great wine and so three years into that he being a winemaker who you know was I say I hands off my dad was like ridiculously hands off.

26:43.45

Ben Justman

And also like didn't really know what he was doing didn't really care about it because it it. It all worked out fine for him. It wasn't in it for like all the money he was 65 and you know retired so he had his entire wine crop entire wine. Go bad 1 year because he didn't do some due diligence on. Um. Ah, barrel that was bad and it went it infected all the other barrels. So when that happened he kind of just said screw it I'm done. Um, this is not worth it. I'm just gonna make as enough a much wine as I want to make which is about two barrels for him and my mom for a year and the rest. He just sold the grapes to people so about a year or 2 into that was when I was realizing that I wanted to start a business I'd had a couple side hustles and was just working as a geologist and was not convinced of any career path there realized I wanted to be an entrepreneur. And kind of was looking for something bigger to like what am I going to do you know What am I going to do with my life and it just kind of happened that I was like oh wine is that's kind of there for me, you know I can just do that and so if my dad did it I can figure it out so started there 2019 um, like I said 2 years of having a full time job making wine as well. 2021 started selling and then have just been kind of growing pretty naturally from there. Um I started this thinking like I don't want to sell wine online.

28:14.37

Ben Justman

Because I'd had failure in previous businesses. It involved me being on the computer a ton was just not yeah no and I didn't want to do that I mean geology was not ah it was like work for the government was kind of the career path that I would have been going into and I would have gone crazy there. So um, but as.

28:18.82

ilm

It's hard to it's hard to be an online geologist man. Um, yeah.

28:34.18

Ben Justman

Then I found bitcoin I got on Twitter and and people started wanting wine off of Twitter from my bitcoin connections. So um, now it's like I'm in this spot where I'm maxed out on farmers markets I I can't take on anymore. Um I could hire people to run them. But it's pretty difficult to find labor around here and compensating someone for the drive as well as the sales just kind of takes away a lot of my upside there and as I said I want to have as much connection to the customer as possible. So i'm. Losing a bit of that by hiring people. So I'm kind of orienting where I'm going to continue doing those in-person sales go to these places where people have money build those connections there and then implement more of an online approach. So really keep my my costs down. No employees except unless like I get to a point where I really need someone to do some things but see how far I can build kind of on my own and keep as much freedom as possible where going into this I thought okay next step is a tasting room then I want to do like an event space and have the whole. Downtown of my hometown scene like kind of come to my place would be really fun but over time I'm realizing that the freedom of this is the is such a beautiful thing where these barrels I open them up about once a month once every six weeks and other than that.

30:03.56

Ben Justman

I mean I could hire someone to fulfill orders I can send emails from anywhere. So like I'm this very physical business that keeps me here with a ton of freedom to kind of do whatever I want where I have winters and springs with no specific commitments outside of managing my barrels. So I've kind of realized that I want to grow very streamlined do as much as I can online and sells and then if I ever have too much wine like if I have because I have to produce wine 2 years in advance of knowing my sales. So my production has scaled growing every year and I have. Um, barely caught up to production. So if I can scale sales more get to a point where I just am selling on my wine then that's super streamlined, super high high returns on my investment if I'm doing all direct to consumer. Um I think that long term. That's not totally where I want to go because a big part of being in this physical place being in my hometown that I think is super special. Well, it doesn't really make sense for my business at this point. Um, it makes sense in the future because a lot of what I'm doing is. I want to create the life that I want to live and that's I mean that's the reason I I love business I'm kind of in this just because I love doing business not because I'm like this crazy wine guy or um.

31:33.52

Ben Justman

Want to get super rich. It's just I like doing this So um to make my life better I can use my business to create spaces in my small home town that I enjoy so long term I think I'd like to go that physical approach and create a event space that has.

31:52.27

Ben Justman

Things that I like to do like music that I enjoy that kind of brings money to the downtown and allows other businesses to thrive around it but in in the short term. It's really keep things streamlined and then get to a point where I do want a little bit more. Time responsibility like maybe that's kind of when I have a family and I'm here a little bit more anyway and and kind of kind of have my kids grow up alongside the business and see what's going on there the whole time. So.

32:21.56

ilm

Have you ever have have you ever heard of or read the story of the Mexican fisherman.

32:29.40

Ben Justman

No I haven't I.

32:32.65

ilm

Oh man, so good. Go ah check it out for this I'll I'll send it to you but it's I'll ruin it for you. But it's basically it's a lot of what you describe there's I just tell the story. Ah there's a ah, a like a. Wealthy investor from New York is down in Mexico the small fishing village and he's sitting on the beach one morning and he sees a local fisherman come in. He just had a small little boat and he had a he had a pretty good catch. He said wow it's ah did a great job. You know if you ah. Ah, what do you can do after this you said oh after this I'll go and ah um, I'll go home and have a siesta and then play with my kids and spend time with my wife and then tonight I'll go out with my amigos and play some music and ah go to sleep and wake up tomorrow and do it all over again, go fish in and. Go home and have a siesta and play with my kids and spend time with my wife and go out with my my amigos. So ah, that sounds that sounds fantastic, but with how many fish you brought in just on your little boat have you ever thought about growing said well what would that look like well you could ah you can go and get a few fish or a few a few boats and you have a small fleet. And that would allow you to scale and then that would allow you to get a loan and then you can go get a ah a larger fleet and then at that point you're you're able to really scale this thing and you can go to ah, you're going to have to go and raise some money so you might have to move to the states for a few years and ah, ah, raise some some capital to really grow your business and then eventually you can go public.

34:03.18

ilm

And ah, then you'll be able to cash out. Um, he said wow that sounds fantastic. What what does that means? Well, you'll get a lot of money for that. He said well that sounds great. What within what said Well once you once you ah cash out from that. Ah that business. You can move back to us. You can move to a small fishing town and you can wake up in the morning and just go fish in and maybe have a siesta in the afternoon and spend time with your kids and your wife then go and go dance with your yourmigos at night and ah I I love that little little story. It's what what are you getting at and. So often what we're trying to do is right there in front of us. It doesn't have to be this elaborate thing and that's what so many people want is man I just want more time freedom I want to have impact on my community I want to be able to spend time with the people I care about and ah we we can't allow ourselves to get trapped in these in the weeds of what are we supposed to do from a. Ah, general, you know, whatever this this book I'm suppose a 20 exit. You know it's like well. But why? what? then? what? And ah, yeah, peeling back those layers of what's important to me. Why is that important to me. Why is that important to me and eventually get at okay this is this is why I want this thing.

35:03.31

Ben Justman

Um, you.

35:16.61

ilm

This stated goal like when I was when I was younger I thought I really wanted a private jet and then I was talking with a friend one time he said I do want spend all lot money on a jet I said oh man I just you know airports are a pain and security and with a jet you can go anywhere you want easy. So you you don't have to have your own jet to do that you can you can rent private jets you don't have to buy 1 you can just. You know rent a few hours and I realized that point I didn't want to own a private jet I wanted convenience of travel. Those are two separate things. We think that a jet equals convenience. That's not what I wanted and ah anyways, yeah like I love where your business is at and the way you're you're engaging with people. Ah, you're.

35:55.28

Ben Justman

So one point on that is I think out of context someone says I love business I don't really care about like making money or like really that's not my focus.

35:55.39

ilm

You're being intentional with it and I think that's that's a lot of fun. Um.

36:11.36

Ben Justman

I Think that that out of context that's like what what are you doing in business then but what I'm getting at is that I love doing a business stuff and in that part of that is making money I like making money and I want to do that. But the Baseline the Baseline part of it is. I Want to make a life where I'm happy and in that I think that if I'm happy I will have a successful business and I will have plenty of money coming towards me So I'm not I Just don't worry about that in the in the focus I Want to build this strong Baseline of a happy life. Um, and I think the money will follow that. So.

36:50.87

ilm

Let's ah guess I Want to go back to visiting your your wine plus bitcoin stuff now I'd be curious So as you navigate growing this business. Um, growing your direct consumer then eventually scaling into having built a.

36:57.60

Ben Justman

Um.

37:06.21

ilm

Really impact your small town. Um between now and then like how do you make these decisions for ah how to grow like if you you you like bitcoin you think Bitcoin is going to go up a bunch but you have needs.

37:18.71

Ben Justman

Um, in.

37:20.59

ilm

For growing your business like if I'm going to have grapes and or wine in 2 years I have to have grapes this year so you have a need to purchase more grapes. But how do you decide like all right I'm going to purchase the bare minimum to grow the business or heck I'm not going to purchase anything any sales like I'm closing down shop because I think bitcoin will do better versus like. Actually I'm going to grow the business further therefore it's less bitcoin I can buy how do you make? How do you make those decisions where to allocate your capital. Be it business bitcoin or the s and p and I know you're a big index fan guy earlier.

37:53.61

Ben Justman

But yeah, but yeah, so I've definitely simplified my finances as much as possible basically just bitcoin and um as much of the wine business as I can afford to have so um.

38:06.35

Ben Justman

The last few years before 2023 I was frantically trying to establish a ah bitcoin position and kind of like also while staying on the course for my wine production growth where. Every year I want to produce a little bit more wine than the previous year assuming a little bit more growth until I hit my production capacity which I'm at right now. Everything is is full behind me and I don't really have any more room. Um, so that would be a big infrastructure growth that I'd have to put money into. Um, which I'm not quite ready to do or 2 until I have more wine than I can sell so every year I want to release wine at 2 years old and sell it for a year and then release the next wine at 2 years old and so yeah, there's some fluctuation. My sales are gonna fluctuate a bit. Um, and my production fluctuates a bit based off of the production in Colorado so 2021 there was no grapes in Colorado and I had to buy wine from buy grapes from California that meant no peanut noir which is my bread and butter. What I grow. And a little bit of a disconnection from the sense of place that I've had so. There's always going to be these big fluctuations and things. It's not like I have this um set like oh I'll just buy more of this and I'll buy more widgets and I'll sell them and and and I'll make money. It's what's available.

39:30.10

Ben Justman

Um, what can I get and a bit little bit of estimation. So basically I I just in the beginning of this year released my first wine that was properly aged. So I finally caught up to production where I had to release wine early because I needed money and sell it. But.

39:43.40

ilm

And more.

39:47.15

Ben Justman

Now I'm selling wine from here on out that's at least two years old which is a mark of quality for me. So um, I've entered this next phase where now I have as much wine as I need and I just need to get sales and so I have enough wine that if I sell it all I'll be totally fine. For production in the fall. Um, that could leave me with some excess money and that's a point that I've never hit in the in my business because I've either been all in trying to get bitcoin or just so deeply far out invested in making wine. What I've done in the past is. Like I said just sell wine for bitcoin and that's kind of just I actually in 2023. That's that's when everything changed but that's when things changed for me where I stopped actually buying bitcoin and only had it from only gained bitcoin from bitcoin sales that way it was like. This is an easy way for me to just put some money aside and have the rest to invest in wine production. Um I think in the future if I have I've never had this point where I have enough dollars to put in 2 different boats like I've never had to make that decision yet and. What I'm kind of gaining like my plan moving forward expecting to have finally I finally aged into my business. This is like the period of time where I can actually start seeing some real returns in it. Um is to kind of just wait for accumulate capital maybe invest some in the business if I have excess. But.

41:19.97

Ben Justman

I Don't really want to be in the position of timing markets because I've done that so poorly in the past. Ah, but also like I said going back to the beginning I've learned about investing and I said that's not for me because that's a full time job I Want to run a business and I want to be happy and I want to have my savings in Bitcoin. So my thinking right now is. Sell as much wine as possible have some excess cash and probably just hold onto it and be able to invest in the business to smaller degrees not make any huge changes like I said I want to keep things streamlined and then be ready to attack if there ever is another huge bitcoin correction right.

41:57.26

ilm

Gotcha what? ah you I've seen you post over the last several months so like you know September was a big month for you then October was another record breaking month in November. What do you think led to all of a sudden like. Yeah, these these larger and larger months of sales. What's what's happening there.

42:19.34

Ben Justman

So ah, a lot of my that that was specifically just for online customers. Ah I'd say about 50% of my business last year came from four months of farmers market sales and the rest was basically just through Twitter. Ah, people wanting to buy my wine. Those people are bitcoiners and so a year ago my last November December January was the all time bitcoin bear market ah well not what recent all whatever. Um and every one of my customers at that point was feeling very poor. Or very poor comparatively and all their excess cash flow was going into bitcoin so I had some people buy wine with bitcoin at $15000 but like I didn't really at that point I wasn't orienting towards online sales and then throughout the year just continued to gain traction there. And for some reason septembers have been really good for me I don't know why every september I've had record sales and then going through that just kind of in the winemaking process sharing my story ah people feel connected to me so they buy the wine because september october is when I start. Making wine. So there's a lot more content to share daily and through that is also thanksgiving so great opportunity for people to buy wine and christmas which is great opportunity for people to gift wine buy wine for their own meals and everything. So I've grown through that. Um.

43:48.87

Ben Justman

And then in December I had the double whammy of releasing my newest vintage so it's a like exciting new wine I hadn't released a new vintage in 2 years and then also Christmas and people feeling more wealthy after their bitcoin investment has increased 3 x. Um, so it's this kind of baseline it's just kind of worked out that way but now looking forward I need to take things more into my own hands and expand my marketing or um. Business reach beyond just my personal profile on Twitter that's done me so well. Um, and actually this is like those last few months are like okay yes, confirmation orient your business to online sales where I've I've kind of just like had that as an option and focused on in-person since then. So. 2024 is me like actually dialing in getting focused and learning how to truly become an online marketing business to move a bunch of wine. Yeah.

44:54.91

ilm

Sweet Well ah if assuming bitcoin does well over the next couple of years if if ah if your wine experiences a bear market in correlation with Bitcoin's price then we would expect a bull market for ah for your wine as well.

45:09.20

Ben Justman

definitely definitely I mean also I found like um people that are into bitcoin tend to value slow moving businesses ones that are built on quality. They value connections with people. So um, I've built that with with plenty for. And the connections to place connections to like building a better world building and through good regenerative agriculture and all wanting to eat and drink healthy while people don't associate wine with like being healthy I think it's a super a super positive thing to have in your life where like to be talked about with your birthday. It adds this like extra level of connection and I mean there's ah been a reason that people drink alcohol for thousands of years you know it can lift spirits it you know, kind of liberates and and can make a time a little bit more special. Um, but also it's wine that doesn't have all the horrible additives. In it so you can drink my wine and feel very good comparatively the next day. So it's all these things that bitcoiners seem to really enjoy built in there and then so that's like saying these are my perfect customers because they really appreciate what I have to give. And then you get to the part where I'm also marketing to the future financially elite of the world. So my brand can grow with them.

46:36.23

ilm

You may I know like my wife Kendra she's very ah she she's heavily scrutinizes ingredients on everything she eats and ah makeup she wears and clothes she wears like ah possibly to a fault I think she'd even admit, she's a.

46:46.38

Ben Justman

Um.

46:54.92

ilm

Ah, yeah, very very scrutinizing and ah we were she was looking at your wine and reading about and everything over the last ah few months and she's either been pregnant or nursing for like 7 years now um but Adeline our our youngest just a few more few more months of nursing and Kindra's certainly excited to try your wine. Um, so that that speaks highly that she would you it passes Kindra's test because ah, most things definitely don't.

47:20.34

Ben Justman

No, it's and it's hard to find wine that you know passes it like I always just tell people meet your local wine maker and kind of learn what they are about That's really the only way because you don't have to put an ingredients list on a wine bottle. It's this. But all of wine. The wine industry is this like very secretive obscured industry I kind of relate a lot of it to to crypto and the crypto and bitcoin dichotomy because a lot of. Especially american wines are made to taste a specific way based no matter like what the grapes produce and the winemaker manipulates that through a bunch of additives to change everything you can think of like every sensory experience you can have on wine. You can change with with additives. And so that's like this very high time preference approach of make this very specific wine that you know will sell and you'll make a ton of money but there's also this very low time preference natural wine approach a lot of it's found like in in Europe this is just kind of the standard approach is to make wine based off of. Ah, farming practices that produce good wine and do a lot less manipulation and additives within the wine. So all the people that are producing the more fiat crypto wine is wine that you're hiding behind the label. You're hiding up behind this like veil of.

48:51.52

Ben Justman

Superiority or mystery and not telling them much about the wine and trying to make them just feel special with words where that's what I try and cut through is do you just like the wine. That's all that matters Beyond wine that makes you feel good afterwards. Did you have a good experience drinking this. And so taking that low time preference approach where it's not like all just buzzwords and Marketing. It's actually making sure people have a good experience I think wins in the long run. But yeah I could be doing more in my cellar and just flip in wine real quick and Click. You know trying to make a ton of money quickly. But I'm trying to build a life that's enjoyable in a sustainable business that people want to continue coming back to. So.

49:33.38

ilm

What's ah like with with most healthy foods. It's so it's a matter of not more ingredients but less so the question is not like what's in here but rather what is not in here and it's sort of like that's how yours is It's like what what is not in this and it's sort of the same time like the story we were talking about this earlier with like the the.

49:38.19

Ben Justman

You.

49:51.14

ilm

Overall connotation with the wine experience or the the Ritz things like that. It's not just a bed to sleep in or a drink to sip on there is this whole narrative along with it and your the story that you bring is sort of like that. Not. How many agreements are in this but rather what's not in this and your story is a lot of like so many other companies there're they are trying to they have a veneer of crud that they have to tell a story for and the story of yours is simplicity and purity and ah. It's almost a lack of having to you know cover it up with all these other things. Um, yeah.

50:35.40

Ben Justman

And yeah, um, the goal is to let the wine speak for itself and the I think the hardest the hurdle that I'm really trying to cross is how do I let the wine speak for itself when I can't always be there to. Give you that first taste because there is that level of trust I mean you buy a lot of people buy their wine from the store. They like what they buy. Um, maybe they ask the the wine store owner. What's good and and everything but I'm asking you to try this new wine that and order it online and like you know, pay for per. For some nicer bottles coming to your house. It's a bit of a risk I get it and so I'm really just trying to to be as open as possible and you know just make sure it's like yeah this is you know this is what you're getting I think you're really going to enjoy it a lot of other people do um but I'm not here to like. My philosophy like I said is wine sells itself. So I'm not here to totally sell and push the wine I think the story the wine it all will work out in the end but there is this barrier of oh we've never tried it. How do you trust that this wine is good. So that's just time.

51:43.56

ilm

It's like a year when people when people start businesses. It's like oh what your marketing scheme. It's like oh it's ah it's going to be word of mouth. It's like well if you don't have any mouths to have words in. That's not going to work. You have to have you know mouse for those words and for you, it's like oh well, you know it's going to be.

51:58.55

Ben Justman

Um.

52:00.77

ilm

Just by how they taste it or people who taste it like but but we have to have the tasters to taste and or for it to grow. Um.

52:07.74

Ben Justman

Yeah, so that's why starting with the farmers markets was such a big thing for me and then at this point um, so many people have ordered on online and within the Twitter bitcoin community that there's enough word of mouth at this point, the things are going well. Um, the the 2024 for me is about expanding that I've I've kept things super streamlined I've done 0 marketing and things have been working well. But now I just have a lot more wine to sell so it's ah formalizing things for me. So.

52:36.20

ilm

What's having ah drinking your wine. We're in Colorado this this past fall like since then like that's that's like whenever I want wine I I intend on just ordering more of yours because like I've tasted it I really enjoy it I think it really does taste great and ah yeah, it's ah. Easy to drink and ah, that's you know that is you are now my go to grocery store wine. Ah maybe that sounds bad. You're my go to wine because I've tasted it and I trust like I know that this is this is a quality product that I know what I'm I'm getting out of it versus ah and I know I'm getting out it from a taste but also like I'm not. Ah.

53:00.89

Ben Justman

I.

53:12.27

ilm

Again, there's not this. What am I actually drinking ah sort of thing like I was I was watching a video on if you ever come across this guy him's like Ethan Choblowski on Youtube he he's like a home chef does a lot of awesome tutorials I was watching a video of his other day and it was ah.

53:15.50

Ben Justman

Are you.

53:28.51

ilm

Ah, talking about truffles white truffles versus black truffles and he was talking about how so much of the truffle oils and shavings and stuff that we have are actually these other chemicals and things that are created to make it all taste the same and ah yeah, so you're wondering like not only what Like. What is this I'm eating like is am I actually eating the thing I thought I I was or in your case, the wine like I know what I'm getting from a quality perspective but even from a actual ingredient perspective which is certainly nice to know I want I Want to go way or sorry you want you have anything there.

53:56.14

Ben Justman

So go for it. Go for it.

54:01.95

ilm

So want to go way back in the conversation I was laughing and I had so many so many stupid jokes in my head you mentioned your geology and different things like you know I'm sure you had lots of geology jokes when you're in school. What what did you study in school wine wine or bones. What's.

54:16.68

Ben Justman

But geology is rocks Jim it's true.

54:20.91

ilm

Rocks Rocks rocks if there if there are bones long enough. They turn to rocks right? That's how it works I promise I'm not an idiot you you're digging stuff up I'm sure if you're digging if you're digging for bones. You probably come across a lot of rocks all right? So ah.

54:30.18

Ben Justman

Um, me gets hurt.

54:36.26

ilm

It might be good have a rock dude on hand if you're looking for bones just in case you come across a weird rock. You don't know what it is bring over the geologist. Ah yeah, um, anyways.

54:42.90

Ben Justman

Your personal but.

54:48.80

ilm

So earlier you said a few things that I thought were hilarious. So you mentioned like back when you're Index investor. You said you like you like things that are low risk and more of like a sure thing which we obviously know like there's no investment. It's a sure thing all the disclosures. Whatever Um, but it's pretty funny. You say that because you pretty much only own a small business is a small business which is.

54:54.10

Ben Justman

Um, you.

55:00.88

Ben Justman

Um, and it.

55:07.38

ilm

Very risky, especially in like the food and ah the food and beverage industry like super high turnover there. So I'd say that's a risky investment and then you own bitcoin which is also perceived as a very risky investment. So you said you like low risk and sure things but you own these two ah perceived as highly speculative assets tell me more about how you.

55:12.30

Ben Justman

Um, let me.

55:27.38

ilm

How do you? How do you sleep the night with that. Um, how how do you bridge that gap of I don't like Ritz but I own these things.

55:32.42

Ben Justman

So well, there's 2 different things of risk where investing in um, investing in the market is investing in other people and investing in. Bitcoin buying bitcoin is buying math that doesn't change and investing in myself is in taking the bet on myself is something that I wouldn't be able to sleep at night if I didn't do so I don't see I know bitcoin's volatile and um, you know creates opportunity. Um, like I when I was given the opportunity to buy at a lower price. that's that's amazing but if I yeah if I went my entire life. Not invest, not taking the risk in investing in myself. Um I would where how yeah how could I sleep a night. So yeah I had a lot of sleepless nights. Um, starting the business. Not really knowing where I was going I had my first couple of years I had some wine go bad. Um basically just because of inexperience and through that I've I've made it to the point that I am and um I guess I just I see.

56:45.88

Ben Justman

Investing in yourself as the most important risk you can take and ah for a lot of people. It's like most people would not succeed as entrepreneurs I mean it takes definitely a a high level of risk tolerance that I think I gained through just exposure for risk through skiing. And being comfortable with being somewhat out of control or being in that moment of Wow I Really have to make this happen.. There's no one that can help me in this instantaneous Moment. So I just am naturally like okay with high risk tolerance and if there's something I can do about it. It's great. But I know that I'm also not a like trader. And financial expert able to be timed in with everything. So um, essentially my comment there with not wanting to take risk was not wanting to take trade risk not wanting to bet on other people and you know. Um I was just doing Index funds through the lowest cost um virtual automatic investor because I knew that within the fiat system I had to take risk. There was nothing I could do but take risk if I was earning a wage I have to be able to keep up with or and grow my wealth past inflation which. Um, now I'm on this other paradigm of I have bitcoin that um mathematically will grow if it doesn't fail I'm also on the in the camp where if Bitcoin Fail Bitcoin has to succeed not it will succeed and I can just bet on myself and continue growing.

58:19.26

Ben Justman

Where I think I have skills. So I think I'm good at what I do and we'll continue getting better at it and with that will come good returns.

58:27.95

ilm

I love both your responses there like ah so much of that the ah yeah, investing in businesses investing in people and their their marketing efforts and a you know board of directors and their sales. All those things you know buying bitcoin is is your you're investing in math. And ah adoption like I yeah think that's true and in the matter of like investing yourself. That's something I used to get a lot was ah what if like when I started my own business. Um, it's like man aren't you aren't you afraid of it not working out so I it was a. Three years ago today is the anniversary three years ago today I was fired from ah I was fired from out of the firm. It was funny. It January Tenth is my birthday so three years ago yesterday I was cooking dinner for my wife and I and the kids were down I was cooking dinner and I was supposed to have lunch with my my boss the next day said what? if what if tomorrow at lunch they fire. You.

59:03.57

Ben Justman

Um, they are.

59:20.12

ilm

And ah, there's no way they're going to do that they know that we have a baby do our third babiess do in two weeks and we just moved here to like started this company. They're not going to do that? No no one would do that and ah sure enough the next day my lunch meeting was canceled I got canned. Um, yeah, it's pretty cool.

59:32.13

Ben Justman

Smile.

59:35.72

ilm

Ah, but it's okay I I was intending on starting my own firm eventually I'm I'm a very bad employee because I'm super opinionated and um, yeah so writing was on the wall there and I I don't no hard feelings. Ah it was yeah it was a it was a nice confirmation. Um. Anyway, so today's anniversary of me getting fired and that was pretty funny because I was actually I was I was going too quick. Um, and I was actually just thinking man if I go start my own business I'll probably never be an employee again and and maybe being fired is an experience I sort of wanted to have and I literally was thinking a few days before I was like I never got fired from a job in my life and I got I had it. So. That's pretty cool and.

01:00:14.69

Ben Justman

That's funny I've actually have a similar experience with that where since all my sales were during the summer during the winters I was moving to a ski town to ski and work in a restaurant to like gain a little bit more connection with wine but really just get out of my small town. And make some money over the winter because I didn't at that time I didn't have enough wine to really to sell and so I did that the first winter 2022 ah and you know did well had a relatively enjoyable experience at the restaurant and then 23 my winery was picking up a little bit and I was kind of in this mode of like. Yeah, I'm making good money here I don't totally enjoy it and I don't need it and I got fired last winter. Um, and that's the last job I'll ever have.

01:01:00.19

ilm

It will if then you shouldn't have been eat. People's foods while you're trying to deliver a tool you come on. You know that? Well yeah I hope maybe you probably want to be an employee ever again. So that was your one chance and I'm glad you you took that one shot of one opportunity to get fired. Um.

01:01:06.80

Ben Justman

Ah.

01:01:18.30

ilm

Um, that oh I was going is when I when I when I left that company. Ah, ah, not by um, my my own choosing when I when I left that company. Um I had some friends reach out and say yeah like yeah you can go get a job at these firms and you could do really well and I could I could make a pretty good living but I wanted to start my own thing and I had friends who thought I was crazy like Jim you. You're about to have your third kid your wife my wife Kendra stays at home with our kids. We have four kids now. It's like you should aren't you nervous that it won't succeed and ah or yeah are are you afraid of that and for me the the best way I could put that is for me personally the fear of failure was far outweighed. By the fear of regret of never trying. So yeah, if it doesn't work out like who cares. But I know that if I was 60 and I never tried it I would have so much regret of like what if and that that what if what it was way stronger than like don't work out what it like okay cool. We'll go try. We'll do something else.

01:01:59.77

Ben Justman

Um.

01:02:15.80

ilm

I'll go get I'll go be a employee for 5 years and we'll try it again like I'll keep coming at you like ah if anything I'm I'm persistent.

01:02:22.54

Ben Justman

Um, yeah, you can always you can Ah, there's always a ah fallback like if you. Set high goals and don't reach them and things don't work Out. You learned a ton and I mean so much of this is just learning building and and doing better the next time but something that you have that I don't and and um was that pressure of supporting the family. Where if I fail you know I've I've lost some money but it's really just me and I can go get a job and and find myself on the way back up. But if you failed you you had a family to support you with people counting on you and so that's just this like extra level of push like um. This extra level of I have to make this work and I'll figure out a way and that's sometimes I think you might not have taken that risk if you hadn't been kicked out of the nest so in in some way like getting kicked out of the nest and being told like go ah be telling yourself but like really kind of the the universe telling you. Go fin for yourself was probably the best thing that could ever happen to you.

01:03:28.15

ilm

Yeah, it's fantastic. Um, what? Ah the other thing I wanted to speak to is I loved the way you said this earlier is you're talking about bitcoin and how like you started buying it a bunch of 50 and you mentioned that you have a high conviction of where bitcoin will go. But then when bitcoin dropped from Sixty Nine Thousand to 16000 over whatever ah eight month period on it. It's all a blur but when that happened you said your your reason there is not that I'm irrational for buying it at 50 your reasoning is people are irrational that led the price to go from 69 to 15 it's the yeah, obviously everyone knows there's irrationality and investing so you could pin it on yourself of yeah I bought I made a super investment but rather you you pin that on the general market of being irrational and not understanding. Bitcoin can you ah you expound upon that I think that's hilarious and I agree.

01:04:05.70

Ben Justman

Um, you.

01:04:18.95

Ben Justman

Yeah I mean so much of investing is not necessarily like knowing the in the short term is not knowing the underlying value of the asset. It's knowing the value that other people perceive that asset so the underlying value of bitcoin is infinite dollars in my opinion. But. Obviously people don't agree with that in the short term so you know at that you know twenty seven Twenty Eight year old winemaker with no investment. No real investing experience I like Macroeconomics and it's something I'm I'm interested in but um, it's it.

01:04:42.46

ilm

What.

01:04:57.96

Ben Justman

I Guess I wasn't mad at myself because it's like look the goal is accumulate as much bitcoin as possible I could have more bitcoin than I do right now if I time things correctly. But I also learned a ton in those times of like really you know having like.

01:05:04.19

ilm

Take me to? yeah thanks sir.

01:05:17.36

Ben Justman

Just such a visceral Wow you did that wrong? um experience like pretty instantly and so now it's like I'm glad I learned those lessons early I could have more bitcoin but if I had more bitcoin from timing things correctly I'd probably make those lessons learn those lessons later and it might cost me more money. So I'm thankful.

01:05:33.18

ilm

Yeah, you learn them with more bitcoin.

01:05:37.45

Ben Justman

Yeah I'm I'm thankful for the slap in the face right away and then with the way I see every price drop is I think that the way a lot of bitcoiners see the price drop is um I'm thankful that I have an opportunity to stack more sats at a lower price because I don't see I don't.

01:05:53.50

ilm

Are.

01:05:56.21

Ben Justman

I view like long term future. Yeah, taking advantage of bitcoin wealth but short term. It's really I have to make this business work and that's where my capital is going to come from. That's where I build the life I want and then all the sprinkles on top that's all bitcoin. So um, it it forced me to really. Get out of the wow you're going to get rich quick on bitcoin mindset like whatever I had of that was just had to be like driven out for me because it was like I made those I made some purchases at both tops and um, the first one especially but the second one was a low slow long grind down. To a pretty low point that that that winter and then I mean since then it's just been I think everything like that was a turning point for my business that was a turning point for figuring out what I wanted to do with my life and having. Ah, bunch of things kind of coalesce at that point and really hitting a low and then building both myself and the business and watching the bitcoin price kind of grow along with me slowly has been pretty confirming that I've built this really strong base heading into 2024 and the rest. Coming along. Okay.

01:07:09.97

ilm

Sweet Well man I I think you'll do well I think ah your your store your connection with with people the quality of your wine. The lack of things that you're putting in your wine and just allowing the grapes to speak and how you grow them and everything. Um. Think it's phenomenal and um I would be absolutely astonished if you don't continue to grow in parody with Bitcoin's adoption rate ah may may your adoption rate scale as Well. Um, but then thanks for.

01:07:40.70

Ben Justman

So.

01:07:43.15

ilm

Thanks for joining me and we covered a lot that had a lot of fun. So thank you for coming on.

01:07:46.89

Ben Justman

Yeah, thanks! Jim this great time.

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TILP #09: The practical and emotional sides of investing w/ Clay Finck